Crowd favourite Dr Khalilah Johnson is BACK! and this time we are delving deep into the realities of inclusive practice. We started out discussing her research around including within a disability context but soon exploded to inclusion in many other contexts.

There are many parts of OT that need improvement and we explore the lip service that is often payed to topics around inclusion with different populations. This is an important topic, especially in todays overly connected society where information and access to news is faster than ever before. Where social capital is now derived from what one says and not what one does. How does this impact the work that so many therapists have lived and/or dedicated their lives to? Tune in to hear our thoughts on all of this.

Brock
@brockcookOT
brock.cook@me.com
www.occupiedpodcast.com

Automatic Transcription

105 OT Needs to be Doing Being and Becoming MORE ft Khalilah Johnson

00:00:00 – 00:05:03

We want to look at your your journey Into how you got where you are now and into the causes and the the research that you’re you’re currently looking into and how far back does that does that. Does that janney start before you started. Iot over. Half are baxter. We delve to start with. I don’t know that we want to start all the way back. Ot sixteen years now and we did. We did have a little bit of like hey going to the profession and stuff in the lawsuit that you’re on that’s right. Well i guess i could start is sort of the clinical experiences that I think really changed the trajectory of my work. After i moved to north carolina to pursue my hd at university of north carolina I was Subcontracting through a company that was providing services to the state in developmental centers or intermediate care facilities for adults with intellectual and developmental disabilities and was just really finding it very difficult to do my job Basically being told not only by the facility but really dictated by the state sort of what the range of an occupational therapy evaluation like And the expectation for me not Write a treatment plan or do any additional consultation with staff pertaining to addressing any sort of Occupational needs of the residents there. And so i’m sort of looking at this will want what. What’s the point of occupational therapy. Then if it is not for me to draw on it by professional expertise to say here here are some things. That are problematic weather. It’s just about being able to participate Or if they’re real real safety considerations in these facilities and here’s how we can address them or develop a treatment plant. Always you know in collaboration with staff. They wanted no parts bet. And so the more i pushed more. They pushed and Just went to buy adviser. Nancy bagatelle and said i don’t i don’t care what my dissertation is about but it has the center these sorts of issues So it’s like. What are the really the the policy that mediate not only what i was able to do as a therapist. That really how the people were the issue in these facilities are just able to live regular. Is you know Even what’s wrong with that kind of stuff because we have similar kinds of issues in australia as well. Do you think that the issue is like outdated policies or policies that have just been made in uninformed way a little bit of both right. you know. There’s definitely some historical towards people with disabilities that informed the policies when they were ready some time ago but they earn supposedly revives with you know thinking well ardal supporters in person centeredness and all of these things.

00:05:04 – 00:10:13

But you still have all these antiquated ideas of what that supposed to look like. He can’t be person centered without actually considering the person you know. How do you have a conference about what somebody can do. They’re there for you know. The even their caregivers are included in the decision. Making it makes sense. Yeah yeah it’s like you know. The the literature ari tells us that with appropriate support. People can participate you. But because they’re in this congregate situation there. It’s the thought or up the various a culture of the entire enterprise right that The folks who live in these facilities can’t make decisions can’t do themselves don’t know what’s best for themselves all of these ridiculous things that we hear all the time even each facilities. I mean happens in group homes to. Oh they’re out in the community. It’s like now. These have institutional qualities is experiencing the same thing in various mental health settings impassioned community same thing and one of the real simple things that we push full before i moved in academia was getting the person involved in their own case. Conference like sean. We’re can have a group of people sitting around talking about them but then people were worried about bringing them in because of all they’re going to hear what we say. I’m like yeah. They can hear what you say. You’re talking about them. What are you saying about them. They can’t hear oh that they shouldn’t here in. Does that one does that thing. Need to be said if there is something or a you just making out of a molehill and a lot of the the pushback that we had was more seemed anyway more just because all. We’ve never done that way. It’s always been done this way. I’m going well. It doesn’t mean you can’t change it but this kinda stuck in their ways. There’s no there wasn’t a policy saying that it couldn’t happen it was more just This is how we’ve always done it all. Is that all quicker if we just went through it among is thanks. Here it’s for the state specifically They’re op. There are policies in place to include people would As well as people with mental health as they fall under the same set of standards and guidelines But in practice. It doesn’t happen which is bizarre to me and just like you’re not even income. I at when you worry about compliance. All right i’m going to be in compliance when the state servier shows up. Yeah so where did you. Where did you so that was for your what did you. What did you find that. Basically we legislate ourselves into these holes right and it’s in. It’s all said by attitudes that you know again. People with intellectual and developmental disabilities Are not a musician to Contribute to their own care In ways that people believe are are safe or that make makes sense And that ease facilitation centers or developmental centers On paper say that they’re there to sort of support Bit availability skills and all these things to help. People return to the community. When in fact they. All they do is perpetuates custodial care. They’re really sort of built like skilled nursing facilities. You know with the exception of some adolescent programs respite programs and that sort of thing And that be happy. Let the state and national level. Who i think truly understand that the things we’re talking about about human rights. This isn’t about you know just simple healthcare sorts of things this is you know people have a right to choose what they want to eat and when they eat it you know people have a right to be out in the community like people have the right to the very basic things that we take for granted. And they’re not there. These ask are not exceptional. They’re not exceptional. No it’s not. Stop treating it as such The the people who were charged with their care twenty four hours a day. You know these frontline workers Their their work is grossly undervalued. They’re not treated as experts in the care people with id because they don’t have a particularly isis right so even how The the programming happens is very lowest in a way.

00:10:13 – 00:15:09

it’s like. Oh well if. They’re not the psychologists that are not this. They’re not that than one you have to take. You know their opinions of what you know mr. Tom can do with a grain of salt. Because you know what. They really understand about x. Y. and z. I can’t tell you how much that showed up in my in my data you know so. We have so much more work to do. Not just with how these facilities operate. Although i am in favour in abolishing all of them But in doing so we have to make sure. There’s a cultural shift Just about people with disabilities in general. But really you know understanding that we’re talking about basic human rights you know meeting the threshold people to be able to live the lives. They want to lead and then saw interesting. Because i’ve always found a number of conversations with clinicians about essentially the people with the highest paychecks usually know the least about the people that treating and like and another thing. I used to have her into whatever had students get to know the cleaners because i can guarantee on zone. It was on the key in it. They know everything about everyone. And everything that happens on that ward and if you need help doesn’t even matter what it is if you need help they know who can give it to bob la la. They were more helpful resource than any other clinical highly educated multiple degrees high paycheck stuff that could ever walked through that front door. Because that just around the people hold on bassa they get to them absolutely absolutely. I was a clinical instructor early. before going. back to school. I would do the same. The interdisciplinary team is not just the licensed folk talk about has during the entire environment. Is everybody in it. You know like you said like you said in. Its in its wild. We preach that an ot right but it’s really not practice. I used to get so like The rehab managers and things that some of these facilities sometimes. We get bent out of shape. If i would include a note that you know of the plan in collaboration with staff. It’s like first of all. I’m a i’m a. I’m a contractor. I’m not here every day you know. I’m not in the buildings all day every day. you know. Sometimes the evaluation was my first time meeting. Somebody said the only thing i know about them. It’s what’s an chart and whatsapp is telling me right. So how do how do what do i look like. You know saying like oh this is all these are all the things that you know miss. Betty’s going to need site. No let’s sit down and talk about you know what’s their history you know. What’s a typical daylight. What is it that you’re actually able to do. What source supports. Do you need to be able to do that. You know and if miss miss betty doesn’t use conventional language you know spending some time in the building observing how it is does communicate communicate her interest in likes in speaking to the staff about how to incorporate that so. They don’t have these arbitrary behavioral plans. I hate that term so much. Because they’re like oh she doesn’t want to sit down and you know eat home peas like we or to site world because she likes her deserters but we don’t want a two year dessert i. This is ridiculous like endure at your home. You decided you wanted cheesecake before your salad allen. Just chase guy. yeah. I mean a lot personally love salad. Yeah but you know. There are those sorts of arguments. That i’m like. Are we really spending time right on this really spending time on this. Yeah i often to you tell before about who’s included in the tame and. I wondered why i’ve never seen any literature or anything that has included. Say like one the person or the family or their caregivers or the support work or anything in the md t like as a definition and. I don’t know why. I wonder whether or not just even including them in the sort of the term of the trading team would actually create more.

00:15:09 – 00:20:06

I guess inclusive opportunities will make you normalize it normalized having them involved more were because like what’s what’s written changes everything right if it’s not in black and white then it’s it’s good. They’re excluded. So yeah the stuff that i’ve read to even around and this interpretation of a lot of the stuff but a lot of the stuff that you read. Iran client centered care. What of the models that you look at client centered care. It’s still discuss it as a discusses them as an other. Its yes we’re doing this. What putting them in the middle and we’re doing this but they’re still them and westville us and we’re still yes okay. We’re listening to them while they might be driving. The the the treatment is the usual sort of inclusive language. That gets used in those kinds of papers but this is still a separation this still. There’s no we talk about teamwork and we talk about united cohesion. And we talk about all that sort of things but none of the models. None of the frameworks that we use even for clients care. Do it is found because obviously you looked at a lot more of that than Nope the exact same you know there is. It’s almost like a passive mention right. If i have to make sure we include this one phrase about include the occupy dry. What actually happens in treatment and Sorry mexicana internet unstable message And you know. I think it creates this false narrative if you will that you know this is something that we ascribe to u. n. therapy and then it should happen in ways that that’s representative. Some of these articles are in textbooks. meghan blaskowitz wanda mahoney. I did a massive Scoping review of all all the literature. So not just what’s Represented in american journals but journals across the world that publish anything about people with intellectual and developmental disabilities and you know literature about sort of like inclusive treatment planning or Mid inclusion of people with intellectual disabilities in therapeutic Decision making process was menopausal minimal. And i’m like how. How even in our twenty twenty one with so much talk about self determination About you know person. Senator clients center planning and all these things are we are. We still saying this blinding gap and what we’re actually publishing about it. So it’s like people actually doing it. How are they doing it if they’re doing it at all so the minimal stuff the did find because i’m trying to find the silver lining in this was in. Was it more recent like we actually moving towards that or is it just sort of scattered throughout the last decade. And it’s just kind of a non something that people just ought even considering it’s definitely more sent Just because we that was the the range of the dates that we use all morrison literature. But i i mean it’s concerning that it was not as much as we. We thought we might find angry. And this is not all occupational therapy literature literature that can relate to occupational therapy practice and the ot specific kind of literature is still you know specific to of course i d is still growing So we’re drawing from special education and no seeing at psychology psychiatry Which you know. It’s no secret to anyone that sort of over the history of those organizations to the way People with id disabilities in general have been talked about has not been favorable. So do you think you know. Overall at least There is somewhat in. its incheon. An occupational therapy to make sure that we are addressing. The interest in needs of The communities we serve.

00:20:06 – 00:25:01

Because you know we we ask about it in additional profile right so by it would. It would be my hope that we take it a step further and and sort of treat like we do in participant action. Research right at people are actually included from the beginning that everything about them. That’s what drives are decisions making process. Right they are driving the evaluation and treatment development intervention development. Planning and discharge. Cloudy on top of that. ’cause i probably cooling it in but Do i want a really good. How far back do i want to She’s a really good at patting each other on the back and saying how amazing. But i maybe in pessimist. I don’t see all of the amazing things that people think we do. I don’t think we are doing as well as we could be or should be doing. This is one of those areas. Where i don’t think we’re doing well at all even though my side my. It’s whether it’s just because we come. I mean demographic was when you look at the professional worldwide. Majority of people are coming from a fairly privileged position to a profession. That’s mostly middle age predominantly female well-paid highly educated like the ticking ticking. All the high socio economic sort of boxes. And i wonder whether a lot of these kinds of issues kind of get pushed aside a under the guise of sort of buzzwords. I see i see it a lot in mental health when people about recovery which is essentially. Exactly what we’re talking about. Recovery model is meant to be client driven and putting them in the driver seat of their own care and ask just being there as sort of supports along the journey and all that sort of thing and it gets mentioned and al treatment plans are called recovery plans and all of this sort of stuff but does it ever actually really get done the way it should get done Same as the right. And that’s how does it look. We’d take him. Yes the one that really annoys. The shit out of me is holistic. Oh yeah he’s a holistic we frigging well on not and if you are you doing stuff that’s one way out of skype. Usually on not not at all and you can feel it stick. There’s no reason to you know. I’m not saying that you can’t be holistic and you know look at absolutely everything but ot as a profession isn’t holistic like by definition. This has to look at it. But it’s it’s one of those buzzwords that who this makes us in good i’ll I’ll throw that one in. Yeah whole holistic will a back up and talk about pat each other on the back main It is it is prolific for sure. You know think about just what’s been happening and our national association here in the last year and a half With you know the third the self accolades there’s Some people referred to it as a circle jerk. But you know just the. But i know a lot but not what but usually how i try to be as real as possible. Ray i think people know that i i say all sorts of other things but you know. That’s that’s the thing know it’s like over going to. We’re going to pat ourselves and each other like everybody in our circle on the bat or doing these things that we think we’re doing and doing well and i think our organization here Last year you know the the profession just decided is going to hold a mirror to it right. So here’s here’s what you say you’re doing. And here’s what’s really happening and no your. Your governance is an awesome as you think it is. You can’t talk about the diversity and equity when you know at every level or the organization. There’s no diversity. You know As far as inclusion is as the representative organisation but you you know make sweeping decisions without including the actual feedback that you’re getting from representatives and then to say that you don’t want to get involved in something because a person is or is not a member is ridiculous.

00:25:01 – 00:30:01

It’s like whether give you money are not supposed you the national governing body. You gotta step up right but no it’s like we’re going to pat ourselves on the back because you know we make ourselves look good on our website and you know which i’m all of the other big net international organizations things think we’re great because you know they model themselves after after what about other website. It’s terrible yeah. It’s a little bit better than it used to be. I will say that But yet and then there’s something about bus court right buzzwords There there’s a term now being thrown around row keys you know using olga particular language right to really. I don’t want this to have appearance that you are about the live without big about. We’ll just put it like that. I would prefer that as virtue signaling. I like that too. I like that too. Yeah that’s how it’s commonly referred to while ashim in many places but that’s my circles in my people. I know it’s commonly referred to as that would exactly that people that are putting out the trying to put out the impression of caring about a certain cause or a certain topic or something but never actually doing anything to progress whatever it is wrong for contributions at all more more for the social capital and anything else right and honestly you know where where are they. Where are they gaining. ‘social tap with you know still still only and that fridley circle like these things occur for them to make themselves look good right or In it’s strange right. Because i’m an ot from certain socioeconomic. Background background has Privileges in my own ways. But somebody who is a cultural outsider. You know by artist. Titian are still look at things from an outsider perspective. They really believe that the work we’re doing is in some way addressing health disparities When literature still supports by and large that folks from black and brown communities like children with autism are still you know Receiving diocese much much later Even in my own professional experiences. I count on one hand in a year’s time. How many minorities patients having a patient rehab site. So you need to tell me you know when your community is forty percents But next that they’re not you know they don’t they. Don’t come to this hospital after having a stroke engine. Yeah anna it’s it’s just it’s so it’s so beyond all comprehension that somehow all of these well educated welby well-meaning spoke can see the data and still believe that they are making intentional meaningful contributions to the betterment of all pointing out like they. They honestly believe it. And i’m just like how how realities. I think one of the things that from my again from my perspective from my position of looking at some of these issues as they tend to come up over time and get the five in the spotlight so to speak one of the things that i think in. Nabil’s people to you know get that sort of dopamine hit from carrying a particular topic for a short time and then moving on is i see a lot of these Mainly on social media a lot of the causes these things come up and people love to bring awareness black but we already aware we need. We need awareness. We need action. We’ve got the awareness we know it happens Like we live in problems. But i think that’s it. We almost like bringing awareness to someone to someone to. Something is almost just from a marketing. Point of view is almost like sexier than actually doing something about it. Like getting your hands dirty putting aside your privileges.

00:30:01 – 00:35:02

Your i in life. Your whatever’s going on and actually helping someone who can actually help themselves due to not having the opportunity or not having the access to services or whatever it is posting on social media or making a big who are about something just to bring awareness to it from a marketing. Point of view is one. It’s xia people will enjoy looking at that mall and two is easier. It’s jazeera and you’ll get more social capital from it. People are going to get more like. Oh my god you’re amazing you you you care about these things and blah blah blah without putting any effort which costs imbed. And i’m i’m gonna leave the holistic conversation to this as well About the whole like influence sir. Her sort of saying that’s a on instagram. I don’t really see it as much anywhere else You know like winds bring awareness to something you know linking it to some other group at list tangible steps in all these things. That’s fine and great but doing the work is something that i would bet everything. I own that these folks aren’t even right like they want. The appearance of kerry Believing in equity in you know Portraying someone who considers advocacy as part of their practice and not something that they do in addition to their practice. I if i. I don’t know maybe maybe some of us need to like have a camera. Follow us around and stuff but the work that goes into doing some of the things that a few of us are actually talking about doing they. Would they would think because i think post about it but they might think of a little bit longer about posting before they actually do it. You know the the letters rewrite the phone calls we write the actually getting on the ground with folks the the ridiculous dmc that week it and you know not death threats or anything but you know phone calls are because they think that you know we’re being racist in some way is that black people cannot be racist sprayed of all the system of power. That is something. I do not have will probably never have in my lifetime You know it is more than just putting out your call them in an instagram right. Your little campaign with all of your slides. This is about doing work that impacts people’s actual lives so we talk about being holistic. Because i do see myself as a as a holistic practitioner but when i say that i’ve made the considerations that i give in the work that i actually do so i’m thinking about the social factors not just the physical supports in barriers one of those social supports in barrier. He know what a what are the policies around. But i can do as a therapist. What are the policies about The the services that my clients have access to. Where do they live. How was that community setup all of these other things that we really need to consider when you talk about whole zone and person centered this like these other. Things should go into your clinical reasoning and therapeutic process when when we work with our clients and and if you find that there are these barriers which you know that there are plenty Then that that’s where your professional ethics and advocacy come into play the people look at advocacy as this thing that’s like a appendage or something Attached to ot when you go to hill day in america or whatever government now have set up with w. f. o. T. conferences like all of these things. Like i’m going to be my advocacy like on this saturday in july. That’s it you know it is is practice practice is not an addition to our practice is very much part of our practice Two touch one slot side. Because you touched on something that i’m quite passionate about is with regards to like how you you were talking about.

00:35:02 – 00:40:16

How you look at the social aspects and everything and i. I believe that because it’s one of the things that i taught students before he’s around. You know real basic oxides like what is occupation. What makes it up looking at the and when we look at the environment. It’s more than just what you can see around you and i think that a lot of. It’s when they get sort of you know whether it’s pressure time while they just never learned it in the first place you need to be able to look if you can’t look at a macro level environment and see the policies that are impacting a person and how it might be either enabling or disabling a person to engage in occupation. Did starting to pick up a book because that’s vastly important and more important to certain populations who are more heavily impacted by certain policies. Like you look at any sort of disability population. Generally and i’m this is general because it’s i mean the main sort of the bigger westernized countries that i know of most of those countries have a disability act of some sort which doesn’t impact ninety percent of the population impacts group of people. So you’re going to have to specifically look at that to start with there’s also public access acts on. Some countries may have that all included in a disability act. I know in australia. We’ve got laws around access to public places and that sort of stuff but it’s in a different act like there’s other things that you get a have to look for when you’re looking at the environment it’s not just. They’ve got trip hazards in the hallway. Let’s remove that like that’s not just the environment this a lot more to it and like you said the social environment that we’re looking at supports we’re looking at friends family. Not just other. There has supportive are they. How often do they see them. Do they actually like them. Like do they get along with these people are all we try to force the support that they don’t actually want in their house like this environment if you’re looking at the basics person occupation environment environment is by far and away the biggest of things that we need to be looking at and it shits me that most. Ot’s that i talk to. I’ve seen seem to look at like maybe ten percent of what you can actually look at under environment and then just sort of The rest must be dr. You know. I i believe that you know we all take cognitive shortcuts. Call it Because of all the external pressures with time that sort of thing but for the sake of the communities that we work with but also for the integrity of what we do as a profession like you really have to be intentional About thinking about the the the environment as a whole. And i don’t know maybe maybe part of it is how we educate our students about it as well. You know I’m sort of running willard spackman through my mind where in the revision phase for the next edition. You know what’s what’s the language arouse some of these models. Ipo gop boho and all of these things you know At unc we talk about the transactional perspective on occupation. You know that was was birthed. From virginia dickey ruth humphrey and Malcolm cushion A we take sort of these more abstract sorts of things right like everything transact transact with herb the environment and people’s transact is Poke constructing ways and you know act on you know each other. It comes back on us all these things right but the you of course we always get the question world but what how. How do we bottle that in practice. You know and people wanted package nice in neatly. It’s like our lives are lost and they are complicated and complex and we can’t always package things you know in this neat little box to present it to students. We talked about it in very real ways. You know that it’s messy and we have all of these considerations and always emerged better fest in practice in ways that are going to be neat but these are still considerations and bury reported critical considerations We have to give in our work. And i know we’re talking about it in relation to practice a lot but it’s the same. It’s the same with research with research is well you know having these very limited Interpretations of data you know and you layer by race ethnicity and how those things are discussed in data.

00:40:16 – 00:45:28

Just just proliferates all the issues that we learned to admire and make instagram posts about sark does. And that’s because the other thing that i wanted to say before was around like you did. It sounds very much like you know shitting on every on instagram. And that wasn’t sort of the may name it’s a it’s a minority but it’s probably quite a few but it’s more of a cultural on instagram. Which made me think that. There’s a lot of especially i think young therapists coming through new graduates. Even students that you know probably are falling into a few of the traps that we’ve discussed. But i wonder whether it’s for them anyway. It’s more just all this is what everyone’s doing. It’s more just the an inculturation of them into that so the instagram thing rather than them specifically going hunting for likes and comments and that kind of thing not saying that. That makes it brighter anything. But i’m wondering whether to me the fact that people are being influenced by that sort of ankle it. An instagram culture means that we can change it. The fact that happens that way means that we can make it happen a different way out of the answers for that how we can do that. Or whether whether we can on that particular platform or not. But i do think it sort of ties. Something said multiple times on this podcast therapist. Dr currently have enough critical thinking skills. Because i don or if they do we very rarely. I’m the at cells. We’re very hesitant to reflect on how i’ve been operating. How y why did i make this decision. Or why am i doing. Why am i posting this this thing. Why am i. Why do i feel this need. And if it really is something that i am passionate about what else am i going to do about it. And i think that that lack of reflection in critical critical reflections specifically is a big proponent of why that culture’s come about in the first place because it’s people just post that all of that gave me a big dopamine hit. We’ll do it again next time. Something comes up as opposed to via awesome. Why why specifically that. Why did you choose those words. Because i’m big on semantics. Why did you choose to say it like that. Or why did you frame it like that or whatever. I would almost guarantee the majority of the people wouldn’t be like on just to set it all saw somebody else posted a lot. It’s just kind of mob mentality. Salsas gone with red kind of thing but it does mean that if you are conscious of it like we we would know quite a few people that are conscious of that kind of thing. I want encourage people to think about why. They’re posting things how they’re posting. It’ll what else if something genuinely passionate about. And what else you do about it. But also if you’re conscious about it don i see a lot of people who are conscious don post when those kinds of things out because they’re like everyone else just posting shit but that’s to me that’s it’s of like the whole on. Nobody knows what do because we talk about it. And we don’t explain it in ways that they can understand a society with this anyway like if you conscious like this is your opportunity to show other people have influence on other people the right way all like. Show them what you’re doing or how they can actually get involved in help. As opposed to just you know posting a hashtag or colored square or some other whatever. The kohl’s is that the posting about like the posting opportunities of how people looking involve Right i’ve seen have seen some really good price about like. If you care about this you can write his address. You can write to this person. Here’s a template that you can use to start with and then at journal spiel under like some of those things you do need to make them sort of path of least resistance for some people but at least some direction of actually action as opposed to just awareness. I think that’s gonna be one of my big reflective points with a lot of those things like he’s this action or is this just awareness because there’s very few things in the world nowadays that people aren’t aware of and and if they are especially something like say racism if you’re not aware that it’s there then there’s a good chance you’ll part of the problem but anyway that’s yeah as far as changing the culture on instagram specifically.

00:45:28 – 00:50:00

You know. i’m not sure what we can do either. You know i personally try to go back and forth with it right like i felt like i’m like i’m not i’m not controversial by. I am fairly provocative in the way that i talk about savings and that’s not on purpose. That’s just throw. I am i. Yeah and i believe in in naming it seems what they are not going to beat around. The bush But also challenge people to think deeper and more broadly about these issues. Sometimes i provide the tangible things. But i really prefer people go do their own education right because there’s a lot of free labor that we do on instagram. But but you’re right. Sometimes we have to provide like a little something like the last year after after. Mr george floyd was Murdered i did right at some plate that i said here the starting point for people to be able to voice their concerns to you know that that turned to a thing right now is like all right people understand that this is something they can do. They can share. I don’t do that every time But ego know. But the folks that i feel like students in particular lean on Don’t necessarily provide adequate guidance Probably because they’re not really bills. Eight baroness you know. But not about action and also think that that was the trap that not a in particular sell into your posting just to post you know but what are what are the actual things that you’re doing. Where the receipts go May maybe it myself in this as well for those of us. That do this work regularly. May maybe part of what we need to do to change. The culture on instagram is to show a little bit more fat. You know. I don’t i thought about is just asking to customize stories at there. They’re so much that happens between posts. It is so much that doesn’t get shared What i hope that part of what i do is show that you have to really be intentional about the things that you can’t just talk about it but you also need some sort of balance in your life. You know ’cause brock. I heard this. This is ongoing right. So that’s why. I also share things about my dog or cocktails that i make or i heard you know traveling just finding joy and all these other things because the world beats you down and so that’s the other thing i don’t i want students to always keep advocacy and justice and everything forefronts of their mind of a so. You know the way that our societies are built. You know. there’s there’s there’s injustice in everything right by even the way. This country was founded was odd. You know that the genocide of indigenous peoples like. It’s not something that we can afford to not consider without doing harm and charlotte’s communities we serve but don’t don’t lose your spirit that you know we have to do things to take care ourselves so while yes we probably need to post all of these other things about getting involved civic ways in doing that We’ll continue share all the other things too Not to say that what you’re suggesting but also just wanted to put it out there that Balance is nice. I don’t why is that you know the the the people that we’re addressing about you know. Sorta being bombed mccullough passive activists by sam going to bring awareness to this issue that everybody knows that’s existed for one hundred years bat. you know. Think about the why before he posts. And if you’re not actively doing something behind the scenes like if you can’t provide the receipt if ibm you and say like hey.

00:50:00 – 00:55:02

I left that post. What what did you do to address the issue like. Don’t don’t ignore it. I want you to sit with that because if you aren’t doing something about it that’s the problem mike. You’re you’re really part of the problem. Can’t sit there and say like. Oh yeah we gotta support. You know people of color who have disabilities but you don’t support grassroots efforts or Not connected with anybody in your own. The be doing that kind of work you know. Whatever is if if it’s not donate money by donate something else you know. Write letters make phone calls like there’s so many other means that you can do since you know we’re keyboard activism very very ways you know do something beyond your instagram. Post your tweet whatever yeah. That’s that’s more what i was talking my call to action for us specifically but more like if rather than just the post saying. Hey look like you said actually do something. And you’ll find that information now. They’re like his chances. Are if you’ve just found out about it even if you’ve just been about there’s a lot of other people that already knew what you before about being caught. I had the similar conversation in the episode. Richie around Especially racism within Australian healthcare setting and he highlighted the same thing he he remember his exact words but paraphrasing. He was essentially like that anyone. Who’s wanting to help the situation. You can’t rely on people in those minority places to always be You know the driving force behind it like he was kind enough unhappy enough to to come on and laid out all the information all the basics of information around on the podcast itself and then provided a whole heap of books and resources. People need to actually take that like a always be giving them the sort of. Here’s exactly what you need to do. Like he’s resources you need. Educate yourself for facade. That and that’s i don’t i don’t understand the Or the What’s the word. I’m looking for entitlement to education that That people feel like they want to be spoon fed. Everything like google’s powerful as are quick. Google search you know there’s a reason they one of the biggest companies in the world. Because they’re really good at what they do. Google could buy earth amazon. One of the two is going to bash you. Google the resource. And i’m saying amortized. Although if you can support honestly your your local bookstore other information suppliers support them But the information is already available to you and you know because there’s always an issue with compensating people that’s the way you can access it for free without astle the rest of but The the good thing is found to in manley looking through some of the resources that turkey gave me through. That conversation is in a lot of instances when you actually get those results so he. He recommended a books. You’re actually supporting the people who need. Who are part of that. Like the books. You recommended were written by aboriginal people so by purchasing their resources and learning about this is as a sort of a side benefit of teaching yourself and learning more about the issue. And then working out what you can do about it. You’re also supporting the people that you’re trying to learn how to support in a different way as well. So it’s got this sort of Financial i guess. Support thing along with it. If there are resources to purchase a lot of the resources all developed by the researchers. That’s the image that comes to mind and there is still much more out there that are by folk of color but it is not their work. That is dammed. You know the the highest level which now we can do a whole podcast on that too.

00:55:03 – 00:56:28

Amazing what an oem keep you any longer. Thank you so much for coming back. It’s always an awesome conversation. We definitely needs to do it again. Yes is a. Where can people find your amazing cocktails and salads fashion. Fash oh my goodness all all the things right so on instagram. I am the academic theorists beautiful. And all throw that link and any others you twitter account as well. I’ll throw that in the show nights so that people can check you out if they aren’t already following you for epic friday night drinks and food and fashion advice as well as you want. Learn a few things as well awesome friend. Thank you program. Thanks again if you liked this episode and want to check out more head over to occupied podcasts dot com or search occupied podcast and your favorite podcast app if you have thoughts or reflections on the topic discussed today. Please do get in contact. We’d love to hear from me. And lastly if you’ve got some value from this and you want to help us out like subscribe share it with friend remember. Be good to yourself. Be good to others and always keep occupied.